slinky
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by slinky on Jul 16, 2009 20:57:29 GMT -5
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Xanth
New Member
Posts: 27
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Post by Xanth on Jul 16, 2009 21:00:27 GMT -5
Silent since day 1, so I've got a fair bit to say...
First off, Jason should be commended for one very important thing. He brought the players. He proposed a huge game, people (myself included) responded and said "You'll never get the players for a game that big," and Jason responded by getting the players.
A couple organizational things:
1. Separate signup thread and game thread. The game begins on page... I don't know. I just clicked through looking for the start of the game, and I've already forgotten. Having the first post of a thread be the first post of the game is a much nicer way of doing things, both for making it easy to jump back to the start, and also to make it nice and obvious when the game begins. I don't follow along religiously during the signup phase, so we were a good part of the way through Day 1 before I noticed that the game had started.
2. Any updates need to be noted, and should probably be noted twice. I think it's good to update the first post with the most up-to-date info, but you also need to post it in the thread. I'm sure most of us hit the "jump to first new post" button, so if there have been edits made, and they aren't mentioned, I will miss those edits 100% of the time. Takes very little effort to, once you've updated the first post, copy/paste as a reply in the thread and say "Rule update, here are the rules at this point in time." I would not have died on Day 1 if this had happened.
Next, people need to give Jason a pass on not ending the game. It happens. Jason is absolutely right... The mafia will ALWAYS have a better grasp on the mathematics of the situation than the host will.
Likewise, lay off the mafia for declaring "We won." I remember the mafia round on diabloii.net that ended so sourly, and that was because a mafia member actually wrote the storyline about killing the remaining players. That's totally different, and whoever it was that pointed out that the town would do the same thing was exactly right. If the math showed an inevitable result, I would have been the first to say "Lynch this person, if we're wrong, lynch this person, either way we win. Good job town!" Besides, Jason made no effort at storytelling in this game anyway. Do you really think he was suddenly going to change his hosting style at the very end? The mafia didn't crush his narrative. And while some of you were bitter/pissed at how they announced victory (or at least very much seemed that way), as an observer who was out of the game from Day 1, it didn't read like gloating to me. I think those involved were just a little too close to the action to read with an objective perspective, and then tempers flared (I will talk about this soon).
As a quick "I told you so," I would just like to say, "I told you so." Not only was I right about the doctor reveal (Lucky finding the doc that easily Goltar, was it just a wild guess?), but I was also right about CG coming after me... Caring more about making the case that I'm scummy than asking what might motivate it. I was SOUNDLY DENOUNCED on Day 1, and as such, I reserve the right to say "SEE!!!! SEE!!!!"
The rest of what I have to say is going to be criticism, and I'm going to post this part first and let it sit while I type the rest. As a disclaimer, I just want to say that I know my writing often sounds arrogant and/or smug. When I write criticism (and I think some criticism must be made), please try not to take it as a personal affront. If I didn't like the community, or see potential, I would just walk away.
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Post by water_moon on Jul 16, 2009 21:03:04 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300][admin][/glow] This is a final warning.
NO Karma adjustments may be made due to mafia games. Karma is for outside of the game board. And smiting/exalting due to mafia games is strictly prohibited.
I am readjusting all changes made during this game and ANY futher karma adjustments made by players exclusively in this game (in other words if you don't bother to post elsewhere) will result in banning. I'd really like to keep karma around, this board was not designed around mafia, and I will not allow the actions of a few to ruin it. [glow=red,2,300][/admin][/glow]
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Post by colorlessgreen on Jul 16, 2009 21:25:26 GMT -5
Xanth: Yep, you're right, I saw a shot and I took it. I actually think that the reason you got lynched is that you went overboard with being defensive rather than my rather flimsy argument. I just found it too easy of a shot not to take, in that that was a strategy you used last game as mafia. Also, for the record: OK, I've made some role changes, and I'm about to make some more, with the aim of simplfying things a bit. If people would like some extra time to digest the changes, I can move the start by a day or two. I will only do this if the majority of players request it.Jason did mention he changed the rules. I don't go back to reread old posts without notification, either. -CG
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Post by Jason Maher on Jul 16, 2009 22:21:53 GMT -5
Because I'm an idiot and meant to ask that question to secretcowlevel - my wife's disease is catching! linkitis: that was a response to alterego.
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Post by Jason Maher on Jul 16, 2009 22:38:12 GMT -5
Silent since day 1, so I've got a fair bit to say... First off, Jason should be commended for one very important thing. He brought the players. He proposed a huge game, people (myself included) responded and said "You'll never get the players for a game that big," and Jason responded by getting the players. A couple organizational things: 1. Separate signup thread and game thread. The game begins on page... I don't know. I just clicked through looking for the start of the game, and I've already forgotten. Having the first post of a thread be the first post of the game is a much nicer way of doing things, both for making it easy to jump back to the start, and also to make it nice and obvious when the game begins. I don't follow along religiously during the signup phase, so we were a good part of the way through Day 1 before I noticed that the game had started. 2. Any updates need to be noted, and should probably be noted twice. I think it's good to update the first post with the most up-to-date info, but you also need to post it in the thread. I'm sure most of us hit the "jump to first new post" button, so if there have been edits made, and they aren't mentioned, I will miss those edits 100% of the time. Takes very little effort to, once you've updated the first post, copy/paste as a reply in the thread and say "Rule update, here are the rules at this point in time." I would not have died on Day 1 if this had happened. I was following the normal practice on this site of having the sign-ups and game in the same thread. I do agree it is a good idea to have separate threads. As for my updates and notifications (or lack thereof), I apologise. Nearly all of my recent games have been at Lostpedia, and there it is known that the first post of the thread is constantly updated with changing game information. I followed the same practice, but I agree I should have made some more announcements of the fact.
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Post by FIREHORSE on Jul 16, 2009 22:54:38 GMT -5
Dead since Day #3 so I have a lot to say:
First of all thank you Jason for hosting a great game. I echo Xanath’s opinions regarding Jason and the outcome.
I have to give full marks to mafia for the victory. Fact is – the town deserved to lose and was outplayed. For what its worth I think Water Moon played well for our side and I give credit to One Tree Hill who I think along with WM were the best players this round.
My lynch was the nail in our coffin. I was the last townie to be lynched.
After my lynch, the town lynched 3 mafia in succession, SCL, Caprica and Kahlan but it was too late. We did not have the numbers.
As I stated in my final prophetic Post #468, “The Town is screwed” , with all due respect I lay the blame squarely on Wrayburn who cast the 2nd vote on me and mostly Merlin.
It was plainly obvious to me that Muzzz, Kahlan and Caprica were mafia. Why could nobody else see that? I repeatedly stated this in the forum.
Rather than focus on behavior and voting patterns too many Town players bought into the circus drama that was FALSELY (I repeat FALSELY) built up around my posts. A passing nonsensical comment about Alter Ego & Xanath regarding Day #1 became the focal point for that circus and the rest bought into the drama. One post.
Day #1 I started the voting on Alter Ego. Turns out I was right.
Day #2 I was the last person who voted for Nac and was forced to vote for him or risk being lynched myself. Day #3 I preached to the town repeatedly that Muzzz, Caprica and Kahlan were mafia based upon their behavior. Like Xanath - I hate saying I told ya so – But I TOLD YA SO! Nobody listened. I handed ya 3 mafia members right there.
Had Merlin listened to me and voted Caprica, you all would have seen what I had been saying in many previous posts – that Muzzz, Caprica and Kahlan were most likely mafia. Read in chronological order posts 400 through 468.
In particular posts: 411, 412, 417, 423, 425, 426, 450, 464. Hard to be humble but I was dead on the mark and then lynched.
On Day #1 ONLY I was in favour of voting for a Non Poster. I usually prefer that every game. I changed that stance at the start of Day #2 after we have additional information.
Turns out my choice for that non poster was a mafia proving that even non posters are mafia as they have been in the last 2 games I have played. So the proof is in the pudding.
Post #462 was the game’s turning point. Merlin – I agree with you – you missed clues big time this game and are usually a great player. This game what the heck happened?
Recap: Merlin (Not wishing a tie – for reasons that still boggle me due to the War Hero’s tie breaking vote – and Merlin himself was the War Hero) voted for FIREHORSE (Town) rather than Caprica (Mafia). That 1 decision cost us the game. He had the deciding vote and was the last voter as well as The War Hero.
The alliances with Muzzz and Kahlan would have been obvious and the mafia house of cards would have crashed.
I knew after that vote that Bob & WM were Town and stated that in the forum.
This WAS to say the least a frustrating game. Mafia deserved the victory. Well played.
Quotes from the Muzzz Files:
“QFT. This is how I saw FH, by the way. As not participating. I probably would've gone after him even harder if I had been town.”
“Although I stake bet any money on FH doing what is right”
What a joke! On Days #2 and #3 the day I died I had posted more than any other player and was factually correct when I several times labeled you Muzzz, Kahlan and Caprica as mafia! Please explain the “non participation factor”?
Several times Muzzz this game you falsified facts even after I was dead, the most recent being that I cast the first vote on Nac Runo. I was last or 2nd last to vote for him – distortion of the facts.
I stated several times that you Muzzz, Caprica and Kahlan were mafia and I was dead on target for all 3 of you. Nobody listened to me and had they done so – different outcome. In fact by late Day #3 I pretty much had the entire mafia team figured out except for OTH who I was certain was Town. The rest of you dropped too many hints by your patterns of behavior. I watched your behavior while everyone else seemed to be focused on the “written word” to the detriment of the town.
@ Muzzz - Saying I am “not intelligent enough” to play the game, won’t “do the right thing” and was “not participating” is a distortion of the facts, breach of the games rules and way off base to the point that I almost feel that you owe me an apology. You made several slams against me throughout the game even after I was dead.
Rather than insult you back I will take the high road and say simply this: Your team deserved the win. Very well played by you and your team. On behalf of myself – extended hand - Congratulations – but a personal attack upon any person’s character and abilities to play the game are not what these boards are about are they? Don’t you agree?
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Post by goltar on Jul 16, 2009 22:56:48 GMT -5
Since I just got an earful about the issue, I'm passing on an extra bit of info. If you notice any funny business with karma (or anything for that matter), pass it on to water_moon ASAP and let her take care of it.
Now, back on the main topic. Good game to all, and congratulations to the mafia. It was a fun game, even knowing from the start the town was at a significant disadvantage, and we did significantly better than I expected.
My guess of water_moon as the doctor was not completely wild. My reasoning was that with no idea of who the doctor could be, and no idea of if they would attempt to reveal themselves at any point, I figured that I'd try her first, because if she was the doctor, it would be incredibly convenient for nighttime communications. I sent that message very early in day 1. She did hint later at her role (a horribly blatant hint, I'm surprised nobody else noticed it, but she's normally far more subtle) but if anybody other than the two of us noticed it, nobody commented on it.
Thanks for hosting Jason. I was personally quite content with the level of notification to rule updates, and I think I'm going to re-use your method of listing the living/dead players in a second post so I can more easily copy/paste the first post for later use.
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Post by water_moon on Jul 17, 2009 0:07:08 GMT -5
1st off, I never trust self proclaimed mafia, so until the GM calls it, as far as I'm concerned you're bluffing. 2nd off, if I can shame a mafia into holding back I will. 3rd off, GM stands for Game Master, nothing says they can't have secret powers/roles... Since we're book refernencing " You do not want to see an angry Healer, they know how you're put together and the most painful way to take you apart." And if I came across as acerobic, part of that was my RPing, part of that was the stress of my role. The larger group made it very time consuming to keep up both as admin (which I hate doing in games I'm playing in) and as a player, and I found myself sympathising with Thyiad on more than one occasion. The reading comprehension issue is one I went overboard on and I'm sorry for that. Also, I'm sorry, Nac, I had 2 out of 3 and I picked the wrong one. You and muzz may switch again on my list of "they're usually mafia so they must be this time" in my constant denial that RNG are Random. (Case in point the healing team.) 1. Separate signup thread and game thread. The game begins on page... I don't know. I just clicked through looking for the start of the game, and I've already forgotten. Having the first post of a thread be the first post of the game is a much nicer way of doing things, both for making it easy to jump back to the start, and also to make it nice and obvious when the game begins. I don't follow along religiously during the signup phase, so we were a good part of the way through Day 1 before I noticed that the game had started. This becomes an issue because of the number of threads. (maybe if we have a seperate mafia sub board....) And oddly enough, we've actully had the opposite problem of people linking to the rule/sign up thread and not noticing that the game's begun.... She did hint later at her role (a horribly blatant hint, I'm surprised nobody else noticed it, but she's normally far more subtle) It was totally in keeping with the soap opera RP! I just has to switch to troper becasue soap opera characters are just too dang dense. @jason why in hades if there are 3 inactives and 2 are townies did you save the MS? Even after we lynched nothin' but townies. Please tell me that was "random"? Kahlan/mafia did the recuitment fail? why didn't you NK the failure?
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Post by OneTreeHill on Jul 17, 2009 0:26:12 GMT -5
Nice posts everybody, you've all made some good points. I love seeing what everyone has to say after the game is over. Kahlan/mafia did the recuitment fail? why didn't you NK the failure? We tried recruiting Wrayburn almost immediately after AlterEgo died. It failed =( We NK'd her eventually, thinking she was the War Hero... we were wrong again lol
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Post by alterego on Jul 17, 2009 2:40:58 GMT -5
Because I'm an idiot and meant to ask that question to secretcowlevel - my wife's disease is catching! linkitis: that was a response to alterego. ha ha. SCL has played, I believe. And, I realize I forgot to say before, good game--thanks for hosting!!!
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Post by Nac Runo on Jul 17, 2009 3:02:14 GMT -5
Congrats to the mafia, it was a well played game. I really enjoyed reading the posts till the last day, too bad it was such an early finish though. I don't think neither Jason nor the mafia is to be blamed for last day btw. It's totally understandable for Jason not to see the mathematical win, and mafia had nothing else to do when w_m and goltar asked for a no-lynch vote. The mafia deserved the win. @w_m: No need to be sorry, at least now you know that i can be a townie =). I admit statistics are hard to overlook even if you know something is random. I should say that i liked being a townie much more than being mafia. It is much less stressfull to get lynched first of all. So, gib me some more BOPT roles for future games @jason: You deserve a seperate congrats for this game, thanks for creating such a crowded and active game :thumbsup:, i really enjoyed it and it was a nice change in pace in the game. I hope the newcomer LP'ers drop by here for future games too. All the roles were nicely written and balanced too imo, i just second w_m's thoughts on replacing MS. Now, who is next for hosting...
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Post by merlin on Jul 17, 2009 4:04:52 GMT -5
Most of my voting behavior had to do with my role really. I figured the WarHero would become a fairly important factor later on in the game. So while I did vote for the people who in my opinion were suspect, my main goal, especially the first three days, was to make sure to avoid a deadlock (and thusly giving away where the warhero can be found). BTW - I did like your idea Xanth, but at first I figured it was a clever ploy to get the doctor/nurse out of hiding given that the drunk could make his guess at any time of the day, and you posted it near the end. And there was the previous round, that obviously still played a part in my mind (similar ideas, playstyle, you were mafia then). Firehorse started to rub me wrong with his replies on day 2, but mostly day 3. To tell you the truth, the person I really wanted to vote for was water_moon, but I decided not to since I wasn't sure about her role and I didn't want to give away my role. For the rest, my input was minimal, since I have not been feeling all that hot (puke an entire night, fever for a couple of days, think it's over, work in the hot sun, get sick again, oh the fun). I decided not to give the RL: not saying much because I don't feel that good excuse, since I didn't want to stand out. As far as the voting times being good for me, they weren't, even though I said they were. At one day, I had to set my alarm to get out of bed at around 2 in the morning to vote. That's partly why it ticked me off to see so many people enter the game and then not participate. Jason, thanks for the game. It was truly a MORPG thanks to you . I will read some more of the LPR thread. CG - masterfully done. Kahlan also. Xanth - Mucho credit for the good idea for the nurse/doc coming out. Even given my previously explained misgivings, it worked like a charm. Starman, strategically speaking you were absolutely right by going to the mob. I just think it made the game somewhat lobsided. To anyone who feels like it, feel free to criticize me (I notice FH had a fair spat at it already). I have outlined my voting behavior above, and the reasons why. Oh right, I forgot about Nac. Well by the time I voted it looked like he was going to bite the dust. The only serious contender was FH, and I wasn't all that happy with a FH lynch. To all the townies, it was fun. To all the mafia, you were scum.
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Kahlan
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by Kahlan on Jul 17, 2009 4:05:22 GMT -5
Hello everyone....my death was excellent! ;D And perfectly timed...... ;D To my Team, my Family - you did me proud ;D Jason, thanks for inviting us over to play your game. I forgive you for the mistakes Town - we may not have been right about some of your roles, but we planned everything that happened in this game. It didn't matter what you did, we planned for it ;D Of course, we could not have anticipated some of you appearing to act like mafia so blatantly, but we did capitalize on it, so thank you to those of you who put the rope around your own necks, we appreciated that very much. We were shocked to lose AlterEgo so quickly and I would love to know why the Assassin picked that person to kill. I was surprised that nobody thought that I could be the Don with my efforts to get lynched (and I love this smiley!!!) I thoroughly enjoyed my last days in the game and especially trying to get you all to lynch Soy. I do think some of you were eyeing her with suspicion after that I think she would have been lynched if my team didn't make the mistake that they made(not mentioning any names...but you know who you are ) So apart from some of the nasty comments made in the game, the sour grapes reactions at the end by some of the Town, I enjoyed myself and thank you for allowing us LP'ers to invade your forum. With that I bid you all adieu Kahlan, The Don aka LittleTiger ;D
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Post by muzzz on Jul 17, 2009 6:22:19 GMT -5
What a joke! On Days #2 and #3 the day I died I had posted more than any other player and was factually correct when I several times labeled you Muzzz, Kahlan and Caprica as mafia! Please explain the “non participation factor”? Your "participation" consisted of the same drivel repeated over and over again. You didn't respond to a serious accusation made against you, nor did you provide a a reason to back up your accusations. Several times Muzzz this game you falsified facts even after I was dead, the most recent being that I cast the first vote on Nac Runo. I was last or 2nd last to vote for him – distortion of the facts. I never said you casted the first vote on Nac. Who's falsifying facts here? @ Muzzz - Saying I am “not intelligent enough” to play the game, won’t “do the right thing” and was “not participating” is a distortion of the facts, breach of the games rules and way off base to the point that I almost feel that you owe me an apology. You made several slams against me throughout the game even after I was dead. I never said you weren't intelligent enough. The other two points are (IMO) fair remarks about your behavior this game. Rather than insult you back I will take the high road and say simply this: Your team deserved the win. Very well played by you and your team. On behalf of myself – extended hand - Congratulations – but a personal attack upon any person’s character and abilities to play the game are not what these boards are about are they? Don’t you agree? I fully agree. You called people stupid and incapable of understanding English while you were still alive. Compared to that (and Soy's recent escapade), my comments are nowhere near as personal or as insulting.
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